Monday, June 13, 2005

2008 Presidential elections

Namaste friends,

Before I sleep, I checked the lists for a few minutes and came across this mail.

It is never 'too early'. I actually made a prediction at the time of 2004 election that Al Gore may become US President in 2008. If not President, I am reasonably confident that he will be back in limelight and get some other high post atleast.

Check Al Gore's annual Tithi Pravesha chart for 2008-09. Ruler of the year is Jupiter and he is the 5th lord of power. He is in moolatrikona Sagittarius in the 2nd house and joins 9th lord Moon, while lagna lord Mars aspects them from Gemini. Ghatika Lagna is also right there with Moon and Jupiter. There are Guru-Mangala, Chandra-Mangala and Gaja-Kesari yogas and raja yogas involving the 1st, 5th and 9th lords! Jupiter has a close aspect on rajya sahama at the end of Gemini. Moon and Jupiter are on the spoke ruled by Indra in Kalachakra (Wheel of Time) of annual TP chart. Moreover, Moon's compressed annual Tithi Ashtottari dasa runs during elections! Moon-Jupiter antardasa runs during the few days before elections.

All these factors, to me, point to Al Gore being elevated to a high and poweful position in 2008-09. He seems to have faded from public memory and public discussions. But does that mean that he cannot come back?

I haven't seen the charts of other candidates, but still I consider Al Gore's chances of election in 2008, based purely on his own chart, quite strong. Ratioanlly, the odds seem quite low for him as he has already tried and blew up a big opportunity. However, strange things can happen in politics.

If any of you have access to Al Gore, please tell him that he has bright chances for 2008 and should seriously consider running. Of course, if my analysis is right, he will run without anyone telling him.

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Al Gore

Natal Chart

Date: March 31, 1948
Time: 12:53:00
Time Zone: 5:00:00 (West of GMT)
Place: 77 W 02' 12", 38 N 53' 42"
Washington, District of Columbia, USA
Altitude: 0.00 meters

Lunar Yr-Mo: Sarva-jit - Phalguna
Tithi: Krishna Sapthami (Sa) (14.15% left)
Vedic Weekday: Wednesday (Me)
Nakshatra: Moola (Ke) (24.25% left)
Yoga: Variyan (Ju) (15.76% left)
Karana: Bava (Su) (28.30% left)
Hora Lord: Venus (5 min sign: Le)
Mahakala Hora: Venus (5 min sign: Ge)
Kaala Lord: Rahu (Mahakala: Rahu)

Sunrise: 5:58:45
Sunset: 18:26:31
Janma Ghatis: 17.2603

Ayanamsa: 23-07-50.94
Sidereal Time: 1:20:53

Body Longitude Nakshatra Pada Rasi Navamsa

Lagna 11 Cn 05' 08.27" Push 3 Cn Li
Sun - MK 17 Pi 47' 53.09" Reva 1 Pi Sg
Moon - PiK 10 Sg 06' 00.64" Mool 4 Sg Cn
Mars - AK 25 Cn 00' 09.83" Asre 3 Cn Aq
Mercury - AmK 23 Aq 46' 16.61" PBha 2 Aq Ta
Jupiter - GK 5 Sg 28' 43.56" Mool 2 Sg Ta
Venus - DK 2 Ta 53' 31.92" Krit 2 Ta Cp
Saturn (R) - BK 22 Cn 51' 55.09" Asre 2 Cn Cp
Rahu - PK 22 Ar 52' 58.39" Bhar 3 Ar Li
Ketu 22 Li 52' 58.39" Visa 1 Li Ar
Maandi 23 Ge 19' 14.85" Puna 1 Ge Ar
Gulika 13 Ge 17' 23.19" Ardr 2 Ge Cp
Uranus 29 Ta 24' 34.03" Mrig 2 Ta Vi
Neptune (R) 18 Vi 30' 43.62" Hast 3 Vi Ge
Pluto (R) 19 Cn 32' 54.30" Asre 1 Cn Sg
Bhava Lagna 1 Cn 04' 33.92" Puna 4 Cn Cn
Hora Lagna 14 Li 38' 16.60" Swat 3 Li Aq
Ghati Lagna 25 Le 19' 24.65" PPha 4 Le Sc
Vighati Lagna 18 Sg 45' 04.88" PSha 2 Sg Vi
Varnada Lagna 11 Aq 05' 08.27" Aswi 1 Aq Vi
Sree Lagna 13 Ar 47' 25.63" Bhar 1 Ar Le
Pranapada Lagna 19 Ar 02' 06.73" Bhar 2 Ar Vi
Indu Lagna 10 Pi 06' 00.64" UBha 3 Pi Li
Dhooma 1 Le 07' 53.09" Magh 1 Le Ar
Vyatipata 28 Sc 52' 06.91" Jye 4 Sc Pi
Parivesha 28 Ta 52' 06.91" Mrig 2 Ta Vi
Indra Chapa 1 Aq 07' 53.09" Dhan 3 Aq Li
Upaketu 17 Aq 47' 53.09" Sata 4 Aq Pi
Kaala 0 Le 58' 07.12" Magh 1 Le Ar
Mrityu 8 Vi 34' 30.21" UPha 4 Vi Pi
Artha Prahara 6 Ar 16' 15.52" Aswi 2 Ar Ta
Yama Ghantaka 7 Ta 58' 32.42" Krit 4 Ta Pi
Prana Sphuta 8 Sc 43' 04.53" Anu 2 Sc Vi
Deha Sphuta 4 Cp 05' 28.33" USha 3 Cp Aq
Mrityu Sphuta 20 Le 49' 35.40" PPha 3 Le Li
Sookshma TriSphuta 3 Cp 38' 08.26" USha 3 Cp Aq
TriSphuta 4 Ge 28' 32.10" Mrig 4 Ge Sc
ChatusSphuta 22 Ta 16' 25.19" Rohi 4 Ta Cn
PanchaSphuta 15 Ge 09' 23.57" Ardr 3 Ge Aq
V2 11 Pi 05' 08.27" Aswi 1 Pi Li
V3 11 Aq 05' 08.27" Aswi 1 Aq Cp
V4 11 Cn 05' 08.27" Aswi 1 Cn Aq
V5 11 Li 05' 08.27" Aswi 1 Li Ta
V6 11 Sc 05' 08.27" Aswi 1 Sc Ge
V7 11 Aq 05' 08.27" Aswi 1 Aq Vi
V8 11 Pi 05' 08.27" Aswi 1 Pi Li
V9 11 Aq 05' 08.27" Aswi 1 Aq Cp
V10 11 Sc 05' 08.27" Aswi 1 Sc Aq
V11 11 Li 05' 08.27" Aswi 1 Li Ta
V12 11 Cn 05' 08.27" Aswi 1 Cn Ge
Kunda 27 Sg 56' 09.73" USha 1 Sg Sg

|Su |Ra |Ve AL |Md Gk |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
|Me | |As Ma |
| | |SaR |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
|-----------| Rasi |-----------|
| | |GL |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
|Mo Ju | |Ke HL | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |

Vimsottari Dasa (started from Moon):

Ket Ket 1942-12-14 Ven 1943-05-10 Sun 1944-07-11
Moon 1944-11-17 Mars 1945-06-16 Rah 1945-11-14
Jup 1946-12-02 Sat 1947-11-09 Merc 1948-12-16
Ven Ven 1949-12-14 Sun 1953-04-12 Moon 1954-04-12
Mars 1955-12-14 Rah 1957-02-10 Jup 1960-02-11
Sat 1962-10-15 Merc 1965-12-14 Ket 1968-10-15
Sun Sun 1969-12-14 Moon 1970-03-31 Mars 1970-10-03
Rah 1971-02-05 Jup 1972-01-01 Sat 1972-10-21
Merc 1973-10-03 Ket 1974-08-09 Ven 1974-12-14
Moon Moon 1975-12-14 Mars 1976-10-15 Rah 1977-05-13
Jup 1978-11-14 Sat 1980-03-12 Merc 1981-10-15
Ket 1983-03-13 Ven 1983-10-16 Sun 1985-06-13
Mars Mars 1985-12-14 Rah 1986-05-10 Jup 1987-05-29
Sat 1988-05-03 Merc 1989-06-13 Ket 1990-06-10
Ven 1990-11-09 Sun 1992-01-07 Moon 1992-05-12
Rah Rah 1992-12-14 Jup 1995-08-28 Sat 1998-01-18
Merc 2000-11-26 Ket 2003-06-14 Ven 2004-07-02
Sun 2007-07-02 Moon 2008-05-25 Mars 2009-11-26
Jup Jup 2010-12-14 Sat 2013-01-30 Merc 2015-08-15
Ket 2017-11-20 Ven 2018-10-28 Sun 2021-06-26
Moon 2022-04-12 Mars 2023-08-15 Rah 2024-07-21
Sat Sat 2026-12-14 Merc 2029-12-17 Ket 2032-08-27
Ven 2033-10-06 Sun 2036-12-05 Moon 2037-11-18
Mars 2039-06-17 Rah 2040-07-27 Jup 2043-06-01
Merc Merc 2045-12-14 Ket 2048-05-10 Ven 2049-05-07
Sun 2052-03-07 Moon 2053-01-12 Mars 2054-06-14
Rah 2055-06-11 Jup 2057-12-29 Sat 2060-04-03

|Su | | |Ma |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
|Me Ve | | |
|Ra AL | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
|-----------| Rasi |-----------|
| | |SaR Ke |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
|Mo Ju |As Gk | |HL |
|GL Md | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |

Thursday, June 09, 2005

Arudha Some Tips from Pt. Sanjay Rath

Jaya Jagannatha
Dear Anurag
Illusion is not something that is just centric to the individual. It is an image and will be seen differently b different people based on their own perception of the image. The way you look at Bill Clinton shall be different than the way I see him or the way Hillary Clinton sees him, so it is centric from various view points. Yet it is an image and this image is a more than life figure as the President of the USA. This image is the arudha and he rode this image for some time and then the nature of the arudha changed, yet the hangover of the arudha continues. It is more like a flavor that is based on retained memory. Now we all know (retained memory) that he was the president. He also knows this. What happens to one like President Reagan who loses the memory that he was President. What effect does this have on the arudha? Does it cause the arudha to change from (1) his perspective and (2) from the worlds perspective. So you see the arudha is important and the paka lagna is also very important. If the lagnesa does not like the arudha for some reason in the change in dasa due to anifestation of disease or an accident etc, then the memory of the arudha maybe wiped out. Here the AK comes into the picture and you will find the AK laying a role to do this job...or sometimes the GURU the Bhratrkaraka as the Guru has the power to memory. See Reagans chart.

In Reagans chart the AK Mercury is in lagna (intelligence) with Mars and aspected by this not a curse coming on the Mercury? Note that there are two charakaraka replacements involving (1) PiK and PK and (2) BK and MK. It was in the dasa of the AK which is also badhakesh and in the curse that the disease got really bad, especially after 1994 onwards. I think he finally died in Merc dasa Mars antardasa...planets in lagna.

Point again is did the arudha change? From his viewpoint [lagna/lagnesh] it did as he forget he was President, and even forgot the name of his wife must be very painful for the near and dear ones. But for the world [Moon] the arudha never changed.

Now try to do the chart of someone like Saint Joan who was burnt as a witch and then canonised as a saint. The arudha changed after death! How do we see this??? Interesting.

With best wishes and warm regards,
Sanjay Rath
Respected Sanjay Ji,


Firstly, thank you for the illuminating post about the linkages
between the Arudha Lagna and the Atmakaraka.

I have some questions. It is stated that the Arudha Lagna is our
illusory belief system. It has been consistently seen in the
writings here that all Arudha Padas shows the illusions of
the 'world' about the various facets of the native's life as seen
from the various Bhavas and then manifested as visible indications
by the Bhava Padas themselves. It has been taught basically that the
metaphysical truth about the Jatak is seen from the Lagna, and what
the world perceives of the native is seen from the Arudha Lagna.

Is the illusion of Maya that subsists in the Arudha Lagna native-
centric? Does it arise of the beliefs of the native himself, whether
through retention or rejection of memory or is it that these factors
apply to the world at large when they contemplate the native in
their own minds?

It has also been stated in the past that the illusions of the native
are seen from the Graha Arudhas.

I suspect there is probably some serious flaw in my understanding or
something is amiss. I tend to think that there may not be water-
tight distinctions between the various reference points but it would
be illuminating if you could shed some more light on this.

Could it also be that when AK and AL are conjoined, what happens is
that the influences that were coming from the society in the form of
opinions and ideas of that society pertaining to the native (AL?),
are seen for what they actually are (AK influnece) and the hold of
Maya is weakened as the Satya (AK) exposes the empty shell of the
Arudha? The timing could be done from the Vimshottari of the AK and
the replacement studied as you have instructed in your post.

It is clear from the post as to the effects of the AK and linkages
with Shani and the effects that could accrue. You have taught that
the 7th from AL is the opposition to the image just as the Grahas in
the 7th from UL tend to show opposing forces from the family of the
spouse. In one's own chart (11th June,1972;10:17 AM; Cuttack,
Orissa) the Lagnesh is also the AK placed with Shani and an Amavasya
Chandra in the 10th House, 7th from the AL, and the Surya-Chandra-
Shani Yuti is also aspected by the Nodes! The interactions of the
image have been such that the tremendous rush and fall of the AL
caused by Rashi Drishti of the nodes has been deciphered for being
what it is: a big show of transience that changes in such a fickle

Since the AK is with Shani in A7, just as you have instructed in the
post, the realities relating to interaction have also been
suspected, piercing the veil of the Darapada. I am hopeful that to
this extent I have understood what has been taught.

It would be kind of you to clear the doubts as to indoctrination and
the AL.

I am aware that this message may have many errors and only seeks to
lay down some of my thoughts on the matter.


Anurag Sharma.

Calculations in JHora

Dear Members,

I have some questions regarding Jhora 7.02 (full 57 mb version) :

Why is there a difference in arc seconds/minute between Jhora
7.02 and Swiss Ephemeris ?

Using planetary positions on 1st of Jan 2005, 00:00 hr, GMT
+00:00, Lahiri, as an example :

Jhora = Sun 16:44:50.83
Swiss = Sun 16:44:28.6793

Jhora = Moon 15:22:12.37
Swiss = Moon 15:22:09.7656

Jhora = Mars 10:26:02.53
Swiss = Mars 10:25:29.0106

Jhora = Mercury 24:29:01.41
Swiss = Mercury 24:28:35.4791

Jhora = Jupiter 23:21:58.32
Swiss = Jupiter 23:21:46.2340

Jhora = Venus 25:11:12.33
Swiss = Venus 25:10:30.8806

Jhora = Saturn 01:00:07.95
Swiss = Saturn 01:00:19.9033

Correct me if I am wrong, both software is using exactly the same
ephemeris file "sepl_18.se1" to generate these planetary positions.

If that is the case, shouldn't the figures be exactly the same or at
least the same after rounding off the arc second decimal places ?

This is not an attempt to put Jhora in bad light, but a serious
desire to find out why the difference in the figures.

I use Jhora frequently and I am very grateful to Narasimha for not
only releasing such a fine software free of charge but also uploading
the full 57 mb version for the public to download.

Thanks in advance to any reply to my above-mentioned queries.

Best Wishes,

Namaste Pushya,

I am away from the lists. If anybody has something urgent that needs my
attention, they should cc the mail to me. Sanjay, thank you for forwarding
the mail to me!

The Swiss Ephemeris positions you gave must have been computed using
"apparent" positions instead of "true" positions. In JHora, select
"Preferences", then "Related to calculations" and then "Planet Calculation
Options". In JHora, default is "true" positions. So you are comparing apples
to oranges. If you want to compare apples to apples, please change the JHora
option to use apparent positions (though I recommend true positions).

If you change the option and do a comparison, you will no longer have upto
30 arc-sec differences that you showed below. The differences will be more
or less uniform and will be slightly less than 2 arc-sec.

Apart from small differences in rounding, that 2 arc-sec difference is
largely due to differences in ayanamsa calculation. I use Swiss Ephemeris
only for tropical planetary positions and do not use their sidereal
calculations. I use my own module to compute the ayanamsa. There is a small
difference between what they do and what I do.

The original Lahiri ayanamsa was linear - it assumed a fixed rate of
precession. However, linear ayanamsa is not correct. Science does not know
the correct ayanamsa, but we do know the correct model for the changes in
ayanamsa with time (given the initial ayanamsa on a particular date and
time). So I use the non-linear model. I am assuming that Swiss Ephemeris
uses the original linear Lahiri ayanamsa OR, more likely, they use the
correct non-linear model, but use a slightly different seed. In other words,
they and I may have converted the linear ayanamsa into a non-linear one in a
slightly different way. When we non-linearize Lahiri ayanamsa, should we
take the star position as sacrosant or the zero ayanamsa date given by
Lahiri to be sacrosanct or the ayanamsa value given for some specific date
(e.g. 1900 Jan 1) as sacrosanct? We can't honor all of them and have to
honor only one of them. If you assume a linear ayanamsa change rate as
Lahiri originally did, all of them can be honored. But, when we
non-linearize it, we have to choose one of them, honor it and deviate in the

In any case, I will investigate this further and correct any errors in my
software or give new options if I deem them appropriate.

On a separate note, some people have been asking me to allow linear
ayanamsas. For example, Yukteshwar ayanamsa uses a fixed rate of precession
change that is factually known to be wrong. However, it looks like some
people want to stick to it. In future, I will add support for some linear
ayanamsas also (though they are definitely wrong).

I hope this answers your question. But, by using the same setting for
apparent/true positions in both softwares, you can considerably reduce the

Sanjay, you can rely on JHora for your ardha-nadi work, but please realize
that there are several options and make sure that you set them correctly. If
you have the patience to try all permutations and combinations, please try
them all and draw your own conclusions. Otherwise, I will suggest setting
"geocentric" positions, "true" positions and "mean" nodes in the "Planet
Calculation Options". However, I am not sure if Lahiri ayanamsa is fully
correct. Above, we were talking about deviations of 1-2 arc-sec between
softwares. But I am of the opinion that the Lahiri ayanamsa may be off by
1-2 arc-MIN. As this is comparable to the ardha-nadi size, your research
cannot be done without fixing the ayanamsa perfectly!

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Jaya Jagannatha
Dear Narasimha
OK your point is made. We had also discussed this some time back and from next year shall start addresing the vexed ayanamsa issue so that we can at least try to settle it to whatever extent possible.
The options I have been using are -
1. Geocentric positions
2. True positions for planets
3. Mean nodes [still cannot understand why some people use true nodes ignoring Parasara and Jaimini's teaching of constant Rahu retrogression which is also confirmed in Prasna Marga rahu-sun-moon chakra and Jataka Parijatha]
4. Thanks for the poit on the need to tinker with the Lahiri Ayanamsa by 1-2 arc-min
Here is some point for you to consider in future
Case-1: Jiddu Krishnamurti
Krishnamurti, Jiddu
Date: May 12, 1895
Time: 12:23:30 am
Time Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT)
Place: 78 E 30' 00", 13 N 33' 00"
Madanapalle, India
Lagna in Swadhaa nadiamsa and Saturn exalted [male birth confirmation] is the ardha nadiamsa ruler confirming his beliefs on guru-shisya concept and his rejection of father [Saturn opposite Sun], his concept on total freedom [exalted in Libra and retro] etc. Now this can get altered if the *Custom Ayanamsa* is more than lahiri ayanamsa by 1m47sec to Venus which is completely wrong. So the upper limit of change is 1m46s > Lahiri > 2m0s ...........[A]

Case-2: Dr B V Raman
Raman, Bangalore Venkata
Date: August 8, 1912
Time: 7:43:00 pm
Time Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT)
Place: 77 E 35' 00", 12 N 59' 00"
Lagna in Navanita nadiamsa and Sun in Cancer [male birth confirmation] is the ardha nadiamsa ruler confirming his indept study as a jyotishi etc. Themodification does not occur if the change of *custom ayanamsa is within 2m0s >Lahiri> 1m57s...[B]
Taking A & B we have the range of 1m46s > Lahiri > 1m57s

Lot more cases have to be done before we can arrive at the exact ayanamsa.
I fully support your stand on the non-linear ayanamsa as this is closer to the truth and the liear ayanamsa has to be rejected sooner or later by all as it is a hangover of the past. As the worlds mathematical knowledge improves, astrologers must grow to benefit from it. Now come to the three options -
You state:
>When we non-linearize Lahiri ayanamsa, should we take the star
>position as sacrosant or the zero ayanamsa date given by
>Lahiri to be sacrosanct or the ayanamsa value given for some
>specific date (e.g. 1900 Jan 1) as sacrosanct?

1. Taking the star position to be sacrosanct - this is the chitra paksha definition and should be recommended by us (SJC) based on the first day of every century i.e. 1 Jan 1900 at midnight in Ujjain and 1 Jan 2000 etc and non-linear ayanamsa progression.
2. Zero ayanamsa date given by Lahiri - this should be called Lahiri Non-linear ayanamsa
3. There should be an option for Lahiri linear ayanamsa [we can never recommend this] for those who cannot understand why.
4. Forget any magic dates.

Add these options only when you have the time after the TP book. Now I have done some work recently on a chart using the sixth level of the Vimsottari dasa to prove to him that it works. Hari was visiting and here was my detailed reading.
Here are some extracts. Hari can copy the various mails he has been writing to Visti and others on this.

I can't recollect what Sanjay did with the rasi & navamsa as I was talking simultaneously with Sarbani at that time but nevertheless here is the table of events with comments by Sanjay that may help you to understand what Sanjay did with the rasi and navamsa.
Präëa antardaçä Deha antardaçä Reading of situation
Ra Me Left home to travel by flight in northern direction from Mumbai to Delhi
Ke Flight delayed due to technical reason
Ve Flight took off for Delhi
Mo Work of proof reading book given by Sanjay
Ju Ju Discussions with Sarbani, Freedom & Sanjay
Sa Very tired, went to sleep
Ke Woke up but did not get up from bed*
Ve Got up finally, attended interview
Mo Ate food but did not like it, offer of job and reimbursement of travel allowance (in FULL due to breaking of sakata yoga causing mukuta yoga)
Ma/Ra Discussions with Sarbani/Freedom/Sanjay
Sa Sa Left Gangaram hospital road residence to travel in west direction back to Mumbai. No boarding pass issued but after some time, issued boarding pass in first class although ticket was economy class
Data for use is:

Hari (rectified Sanjay Rath)

Natal Chart

Date: September 28, 1971
Time: 11:02:21
Time Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT)
Place: 80 E 14' 00", 13 N 02' 00"
Chennai Thyagarayanagar, India
Lahiri ayanamsa and apparent time of sunrise
Rath: * things like this were read from the rasi and navamsa using sixth level of vimsottari dasa to correct the time. He actually confirmed this later. The point is that this does not match the ardha nadiamsa of Saturn which is totally incorrect and the correct ardha nadiamsa ruler should be Venus which is (1) debilitated (F) conjoined (2) Sun (M) and (3) exalted (M) Mercury (M) to indicate a male [3M 1F] male birth.
Now what we need is the exact ayanamsa which gives this level of vimsottari dasa as indicated above and also Venus as the ardha nadiamsa ruler.
With best wishes and warm regards,
Sanjay Rath

Wednesday, June 08, 2005

Atmakaraka and Arudha Lagna

By Pt. Sanjay Rath
Jaya Jagannatha
Dear Bharat

You have made some very fine points about the nature of the arudha lagna and atmakaraka.

Arudha lagna is the illusionary belief system based on our indoctrination and what we consider as good and bad, what we consider as right and wrong. It is always black and white, the good guys and bad guys are based on this indoctrination by society (Moon) and mental experiences (Moon-manas) which is based on memory which agai is a function of selective retention (Jupiter) and selective erosion (Saturn) based on how pleasant they were. This emotion of pleasant memory and otherwise is subjective to the individual and will vary based on the rasi where the arudha lagna is. The arudha lagna is this illusion that is created by the intelligence (lagna and paka lagna).

Now come to the possibility where the arudha lagna and atmakaraka are in the same sign. To be in the same sign it becomes imperative that the lagnesa and at atmakaraka are different planets. The indoctrination of the society of influence is indicated by the arudha lagna. Moon is the significator for this showing the primary indoctrination coming from the society connected with home - mother, mother tongue, family, childhood days etc. Jupiter is a great benefic for the fame and shows the indictrination coming from the learning that the society offers.

Now Atmakaraka is like a Jyotirlinga. It holds tremendous knowlege - the knowledge of the paramesthi guru - the knowlegde of Shiva. This knowledge when coming into contact with any arudha or any graha pada throws up the *untruth* associated with the indoctrination. After all Shiva is - satyam shivam sundaram.

That is why when the arudha lagna and the atmakaraka come together, the person starts to question the indoctrination of society. He challenges the teachings of the society and may reject many such teachings. Let us examine some of these cases (since you take the trouble of giving the example, its my pleasure to continue the thread).

1. Mahatma Gandhi has atmakaraka Jupiter, so his arudha lagna and AL are not the same. I use the time of 7.30 am LMT for his chart as is reported widely. The change came for him due to the *atmakaraka replacement* caused by the Moon and Jupiter being in the same degree. So at about 24 -32 years of age he will change very drastically. When this change will occur, the arudha lagna and *new atmakaraka* will become one in Cancer and he questioned the political system of the day as he has Rahu influencing the atmakaraka Moon. He questioned the untruth in it and started to show the path to *RAMA RAJYA* through satyagraha. Remember New AK Moon is with Rahu.

2. Jiddu Krishnamuti has the Sun atmakaraka in arudha lagna in Aries. This is the most royal sign and the Sun relates to father. There is a dictum which states that the Sun in the 1st or 7th house in Aries/Libra - native is abandoned by parents. This is true both for Bhagavan Sri Rama and Jiddu Krishnamurti who had Sun in AL in Aries and Saturn in 7th house. Krishnamurti lost his mother in 1905 and was finally adopted by Helena Blavatsky in 1910. Then there was a legal dispute over parental custody between Blavatsky and Jiddu Narasimah (Krishnamurti's biological father). It finally ended when Krishnamurti finall appeared at the Privy council and chose Blavatsky instead of his father. [at this stage the arudha lagna dominated over the atmakaraka as Krishnamurti was only 18 years old]. However, the atmakaraka started rising after his 28 years of age as it is in Aries - this was triggered by two events (1) death of father [Sun] in 1924 and (2) death of brother [Mars] in 1925. Look at the Sun in Aries as AK. Then in 1929 on the opening day of the annual Star Camp at Ommen, Holland, Krishnamurti dissolved the Order before 3000 members. This was the complete and total rejection of the arudha. He questioned the fundamental basis of the guru-shisya parampara and said that the spiritual path was a path to freedom while the guru-shisya parampara of spiritual lineages in India were a kind of bondage. Remember AK Sun in AL is aspected by Saturn.

3. Dr. B.V.Raman has the atmakaraka Moon with Saturn in the arudha lagna and just like the other two cases, he questioned the basic theory that jyotisa should not be taught to foreigners as (1) Jyotisa was a vedanga and (2) it should not be taught in foreign languages. He was the first one to break free from this in a large scale teaching of jyotisa through the Astrological Magazine. To do this he needed to have another yoga as mentioned in Deva Keralam: The association of the lords of the 6th and 8th houses in a yoga with either the 5th lord or the 5th house. Such a person will teach the vedas and vedanga to foreigners in a foreign land and in a foreign language. In Dr Raman's chart we find that the fifth lord Mercury is also the 8th lord and is in kendra to Moon (sarada yoga) and with the dharma-karmadhipati yoga (highest yoga necessary to teach veda/vedanga).

The point I am trying to make is that when you say (1) questionig process, there must be a suitable combination showing the questioning process and unless we have a saturn or Rahu involved what will trigger the questioning? Saturn indicates sorrow and suffering that triggers questioning while causes shocks to start the questioning. (2) Many factors that you state should be defined and in general is it necessary to achieve by teaching this knowledge to others? There are millions who have had similar lessons but did not bother to go out and teach it to others like the three we discussed above did. In each of their cases there were yogas outside the cmbination of AK and AL to support the activity that is required after the questioning process. (3) You have correctly pointed out that a harsh situation accelerates the questioning and change - this is perfectly right but then it must translate into *jyotisa language* which I have done by adding the terrible taste of the malefic planets.

Finally Bharat, thanks for this. It made me see my own chart and wonder why I have done what I did so far and whether I should continue doing it. [Aug 7, 1963; 9.15 Pm Sambalpur, India] How many more harsh lessons will Saturn give.

One more point - the final decision shall also depend on factors outside the AK, AL story. Lets try these - Why did Krishnamurti reject the Guru-shisya parampara of ancient India? Did the makara lagna have a say? Why did Gandhi take to Satyagraha on the one hand and dilly dally with satyagraha in sexual control? Did the Libra lagna with Mars and Venus have a say?

With best wishes and warm regards,
Sanjay Rath
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Brihaspati Gayatri, Vishwamitra/Gaathina Rishi Rig Veda 6.62.6